Protecting Cascade Choss

I've been mulling this over since climbing Mt. Washington in Oregon on Saturday and discovering first-hand the difficulty of protecting the loose sections of rock. Watching the rescue that was going on at the same time and hearing that all their gear had pulled made me extra-nervous.

I have never done any aid climbing nor have I ever listened to that satisfying ping of a piton being driven home. However, on the route we climbed there were 3 different pitons left in the rock

See below for one mountaineer's (qualified) opinion:

: I've been mulling this over since climbing Mt. Washington in Oregon on : Saturday and discovering first-hand the difficulty of protecting the : loose sections of rock. Watching the rescue that was going on at the : same time and hearing that all their gear had pulled made me : extra-nervous.

: I have never done any aid climbing nor have I ever listened to that : satisfying ping of a piton being driven home. However, on the route we : climbed there were 3 different pitons left in the rock

Lots of routes were first done with pitons. But I'm not sure I understand why you think choss might hold a piton better than some other kind of pro. Choss is choss, and if the rock itself is weak, no pro is going to make it any stronger.

Sure you see a lot of old fixed pins, but I've seen other stuff left behind that was just as fixed (a fixed tricam that someone must have fallen on comes to mind).

I think it is bad form to leave behind anything you don't have to leave behind. But there are times when things have to be left behind.

Probably. On Ingalls Peak there were two manky pins that people used to use for years at the main belay spot. A couple years ago someone replaced them with some big bomber bolts, and frankly I didn't mind that at all.

The ethics of leaving behind fixed gear and bolts on wilderness alpine climbs is debatable, but I don't climb enough rock to really have formed a solid opinion on the subject.

^^^ oops, 'now' should be 'not'.

you can see I am really bored from work. I start to read my own posts now.

The AUG 2000 issue of CLIMBING (p. 104) has an article entitled 'The New Iron' with a sub-article entitled 'Placing Fixed Pitons'. This article details the best pins for the job. Curiously, it doesn't identify which is the best pin for NW choss.....

The places where one would drive a piton were super-thin cracks that would not take any gear that I am aware of. You're right

I agree that pro won't make bad rock stronger, but you can, from time to time, use techniques that will increase the odds that your gear will hold:

1) Place gear on both sides of loose blocks and equalize a runner between them.

2) Place gear such that it helps loose blocks stay keyed in rather than levering out.

3) Whenever possible, avoid using small pieces like tiny nuts in loose rock. A little movement in the rock will release the piece. In these situations, if you have a good stance, you can place a small piece and weight it to move the loose rock, then place a larger piece, weight it, etc.

4) Place a few pieces, equalize and use a runner system that will not extend and shock load the other pieces if one pops.

I'm sure there are many more possibilities.

Fatty

Before you buy.

As far as climbing in the Washington Cascades from Seattle and North, the vast majority of routes which have been climb already

Another place where pitons work better is in ice and sand/dirt filled

That depends on the route. Liberty Crack or N Ridge of Stuart, yes. NE Ridge of Triumph or W Face of Guye, perhaps not. On another note, what does 'by and large' mean? I have climbed alpine rock routes throughout the range and haven't been unduly depressed by the quality of the rock.

Again, it depends on the route.

Do you mean put in a new one or just pull and replace? Perhaps the latter is a better option.

I have been climbing alpine rock routes in the WA Cascades since 1983 and have never placed a pin on any of them (aid routes exclusive). Go light, go fast, run it out when you have to, or bail is the philosophy that has served me well.

Scott