flash, onsite, redpoint

From the past usage of these terms I have seen, they only apply to lead climbing. I have never considered a climb redpointed, flashed or onsited unless it's done on lead.

Toproping simply never counted in the usage of these terms as I've known them. At least in Idaho those terms only apply to leading. Toproping doesn't count. Toproping is practice. I never claim to have done a climb until I've redpointed on lead.

could anyone tell me the difference between onsite, flash and redpoint

this is what i consider them to be:

onsite - walking up to a climb never having seen or tried it and leading it clean to the top

flash - never having seen a climb and climbing it clean on top rope (not used in lead)

redpoint - climbing a climb clean on top rope or lead after having tried it before and failed

Your descriptions are accurate except that of flash. Top-rope flash is sometimes used to describe what you have defined as a flash but in reality, flash or beta-flash is used to describe leading a route without falling on your first attempt while having some previous knowledge i.e. beta. If someone says the crux is after the 3rd bolt and make sure you get your left hand on the left side of the crimper to match, before your onsight attempt then it just became a flash if you do it without falling.

That's right!

You lead it to the top but you saw somebody else doing it before you (you know certain hard moves etc.) Never heard about this one?

i agree that these terms refer to leading, but can be applied to toprope only climbs as well, as long as everyone understands this is a toprope. i've heard them used numerous times in the gym on toprope problems, and i agree with the usage.

never claiming a climb until you red point it on lead implies that all climbs should be led. if it's possible to safely top rope a line, and that line doesn't have sufficient natural pro to lead it without bolts, that line should not be bolted. it should be top roped and treated as a top rope only route. damaging the rock just to be able to claim a red point on lead is really sad.

//ejw

<snip> <snip of mostly correct defs>

Barb & EJ Werner wrote:

Nonsense. It's not about 'claiming a climb.' It's about claiming a red point. You're purposely confusing the two. Redpoint has a very specific, time accepted meaning. It absolutely implies lead climbing. It should not be applied to top roping. Top roping is not lead climbing. I'm not denigrating top roping by saying this.

To illustrate my point, let's consider an aid climb. Let's say you nail a thin A5 pitch right off the ground. Now I repeat it but do so on top rope. I would have no right to state I did an A5 pitch because the top rope automatically reduces the grade. So too does the top rope eliminate the possibility of a red point.

Not only do perhaps the majority of climbers disagree with this, it's beside the point as well. You appear to have stout ethics. Do your ethics include purposely misrepresenting the manner in which you did a climb?

Let's say I accept your premise. Why then do you want to apply a term like red point? Is there some self esteem issue with pretending to have led a route even though you didn't?

Using a term that implies a lead when in fact a top rope was employed is just as sad.

i quote from my previous post: (dingus seems to have ignored the first 2 lines:

to elaborate, there is a distinct usage of red point that can be applied to top roping:

top rope red point (not to be confused with a normal red point) - a climb on which the climber is top roped and successfully climbs from the bottom to the top/anchors without weighting the rope. this effort may be preceded by as much practicing, hang dogging, beta, etc. as you want.

you can't say, 'i red pointed that route,' (which is normally led) if all you did was top rope it. if on the other hand you're in a gym on a wall that does not allow leading (as in no preclipped draws available), you could say, 'i red pointed that route,' when in fact all you did was top rope it without rests or falls. everybody understands what you're trying to say. it gets fuzzier outdoors, but can still be applied, as long as it's clear if you led or top roped.

actually if you really want to get into it, i'd say you could term a top rope red point a pink point, since it involves pre placing gear.

truth be told, i could care less about red points, pink points, leads or top ropes, as long as you respect the rock and minimize your impact. we have an unwritten contract with future generations to leave them the rock in as good a condition as possible. if you chip something down to your level, you just destroyed the next generation's highest achievement. if you overbolt something just to make it 'safe.' you just trashed what might have been a truly bold statement. not all rocks must be climbed, not all routes must be led.

//ejw

'Holy Switch of Topic, Batman!' Christian :?)

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As a friend of mine puts it, 'There is no A5, it's all A1 till you hit the

So in other words, you have no interest in the actual topic of the thread, rather you saw it as an excuse to jump on a favorite hobby horse. That seems pretty sad, to use what seems to be the adjective du jour.

Actually, it seemed like you were going to raise an interesting, and on-topic point, namely whether it would be appropriate to call a redpoint a successful toproping of a route that had never been led but had made its way into the guidebook as a toproped route.

But it turns out you weren't raising that point at all, nor any other relevant one.

-steven-

Didn't we just have this question about a year ago? Ah well. I think the meaning of many terms depends on the local usage. But anyway, less than a minute spent searching the web provided....
http://www.verticaladventuresohio.com/terms.htm

Betaflash (n.) a clean first ascent with no falls after having received beta. (This contrasts an onsightflash, a clean ascent with no prior knowledge of the route. 2. (vb.) to perform a betaflash. Flash (n.) completion of a climb first try with no falls. 2. (vb.) to perform a flash. Onsight (n/vb.) a clean ascent with no falls, first try, with no prior knowledge of the route. Pinkpoint (n.vb.) A clean (no-falls) ascent of a route on lead with gear pre-placed. The climber need only clip the rope into the preplaced protection while climbing. Note: This term has disappeared from sport climbing terminology with all clean leads called redpoints. Redpoint (n/vb.) a clean ascent with no falls, placing protection while climbing.
http://www.fm.bs.dlr.de/misc/climbing/ climbing_dict.html

Beta flash. Leading a climb with no falling or dogging, but with a piece of previous knowledge hints on how to do those crux moves. Even seeing someone do the climb already classifies as 'previous knowledge'. Flash. To lead a climb with no falls or dogging and with no previous attempts on the climb. Two variations exist: the onsight flash (where the climber has never seen the climb before) and the beta flash (where the climber has studied the climb before or has seen someone do the climb). On-sight flash. Leading a climb with no falls and no dogging and without any prior attempts, watching someone do it or beta on how to do the moves. Pink point. To red-point a climb where the pro and runners have been pre-placed. Redpoint. To lead a climb without falling or dogging after a number of attempts. This is different from onsight, where the climb is lead without falling or dogging on its first attempt.

Michael

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